Bill 60 Has Passed: What It Actually Changes for Ontario Landlords

Rob Di Lisi (00:02)

(brief opening exchange)

Kevin Breitner (00:08)

Hi everybody, welcome to November’s edition of What Landlords Need to Know. As always, I’m joined by two friends of mine and professionals in this landlord and tenant world — Mr. Robert Di Lisi, who’s dealt with many landlords today calling about the new Bill 60, and Ms. Kayla Andrade from Ontario Landlords Watch and FrontLobby, who was also speaking with CTV News — I saw a clip on their website. Kayla, why don’t we start with you, on how the day’s gone with Bill 60, and then we’ll get to Rob’s calls.

Kayla Andrade (00:45)

I got four hours of sleep — I’m literally waking up at four this morning after going to bed at midnight, from the excitement of following Bill 60’s vote passing. If you’re watching this right now, give some love in the comments, say thank you Doug Ford, because this is something we’ve all been working hard on. A lot of people are going to say it’s not everything, and it’s true, this isn’t the whole cake — but it’s a big crumb. And I think it’s really starting to open our government’s eyes: they know we have bad-actor landlords, and they’re now starting to see we also have bad-actor tenants. This shows how advocacy can make a difference, and we’re not done yet.

Rob Di Lisi (01:44)

I’m so excited!

Kayla Andrade (01:47)

These changes are small — I know a lot of people are saying, “it’s just seven days earlier,” and I get that. But for our tenants, they’re going to face a $186 fee if I have to file, and that incentivizes them to pay on time, before I have to file at the board. I just hope that when they build this into the process, there’s a proper way to withdraw an application once rent is paid, so we’re not leaving landlords with tenants who paid but the application never got pulled — clogging up availability for other cases that actually need to go through the system.

Kevin Breitner (02:33)

That was something I was thinking about too, because we’re already very delayed, and it takes a lot of time to go through the system. We don’t want people filing and then not cancelling, which would delay things even more with this happening faster. Personally, I don’t know how much of a difference the seven-versus-fourteen-day change is going to make in the grand scheme of it. It is what it is — I think it’s a benefit, but not a huge one.

Rob Di Lisi (02:58)

Yeah, and if you send it by mail, it’s still going to be 14 days.

Kayla Andrade (03:04)

Yeah.

Rob Di Lisi (03:08)

I’ll give my opinion, since we’ve been dealing with it: going from 14 days to 7 days, yes, it lets the landlord file quicker. Unfortunately, it still doesn’t deal with the LTB — it’s still taking a few months to get there. There are tenants who will pay sooner because of it, but there are also tenants who really don’t care, and for them the seven days won’t make a difference — they’re going to wait to go to the board and bring up their Section 82 issues, which I’m glad they’ve now addressed, since the tenant has to pay 50% in and file the appropriate paperwork. Unfortunately, what we see at the board is that adjudicators are very lenient toward tenants — that’s the reality. So I’m not sure how much of a difference it’ll make until it’s put into practice.

Kayla Andrade (04:03)

We also talked about Bill 60’s changes to adjudicators. I think they know more training needs to happen, and they’re going to take more control of how adjudicators grant adjournments on these hearings. It’s good, but there’s more that needs to be written. And we have to wait for Royal Assent — but you can already see what’s happening: the vote hadn’t even finished, and the tenant unions like ACORN were screaming so loudly you could barely hear the vote, because they know people are using this as a delay tactic. If they have something to fear as professional tenants, I think we have something to celebrate.

Rob Di Lisi (05:04)

I agree with you, and really, it’s only the tenants who don’t intend to pay who have to worry, not the good tenants. I’ve spoken to all my tenants, and they’ve asked how it’ll affect them — I told them it won’t. We have the same relationship we had before: pay your rent, I take care of the property, and as long as everything’s kosher, there’s no problem. But the way it’s being covered in the news, especially by tenant advocates, they’re scaring tenants unnecessarily.

Kayla Andrade (05:38)

The NDP are really fabricating this narrative to get tenants upset, so they can use these tenants to advocate for the NDP going into the next election. That’s what’s sad — we’re seeing this political theatre happening, and these tenants are being dragged through it because the NDP want to claim power over the Conservatives for doing what’s necessary to keep supply coming to Ontario, because they know landlords are leaving.

Everyone knows, with an N8 application — persistent late payment — Rob, you’d be the best to speak to this: some people say five, some say six or seven late payments, we don’t really know the exact threshold, and hopefully Bill 60 sets that groundwork more clearly. If we file late, it goes to the board, and under a Section 78 process the tenant is told they have to pay on time and in full for the next 12 months — but again, we see leniency from adjudicators. I hope this legislation, and conversations like this podcast, get that message across: the rule has to be black and white for both sides to understand the possibilities, otherwise people will just fight it for the sake of fighting.

Rob Di Lisi (07:21)

It is in black and white — under Section 78, it says $1 late, one day short, and there could be an eviction. However, if you go to the board, and there are ODSP or OW factors or something else going on, the adjudicator has discretion, unfortunately. I’m hoping this legislation addresses that.

Kayla Andrade (07:46)

There was that individual case tenants kept bringing up, of someone supposedly evicted “for a penny” — they made it sound like a literal penny, but I’m pretty sure the tenant was supposed to pay on the first and didn’t pay until the seventh.

Rob Di Lisi (07:59)

I don’t think it was a penny — I don’t think an adjudicator would let a case go forward for one penny.

Kayla Andrade (08:09)

The adjudicators don’t even enforce it on the filing fee — if a tenant pays everything but the filing fee, they let it slide. If you’re going to make the tenant responsible for the filing fee, why aren’t we making them responsible for actually paying the filing?

Rob Di Lisi (08:21)

Because it’s an administrative fee, that’s why. It’s the cost of doing business — you want to be a landlord, you have to absorb some of that.

Kayla Andrade (08:31)

We have to dish it out and subsidize all the costs.

Rob Di Lisi (08:37)

The good thing is, I’ve spoken to about 100 landlords today — past clients, new clients — and it’s given some confidence. There’s a lot more confidence in investing in real estate, which is good for Kevin, good for everyone, good for the economy, and good for renters generally, since it means more people want to get back into real estate investing. There just has to be fairness, and that’s what we try to advocate for, because we’re landlords too.

Kayla Andrade (09:15)

I think it’s just a form change — how they talk about severity. My recommendation is that when a form tells a tenant they owe rent, it should clearly say that yes, you’ll be brought to the board, but you don’t automatically have to move out. Right now it almost undersells the seriousness of it. I think they’re starting to understand how the paperwork we give tenants feeds into the chaos we see at the board.

Rob Di Lisi (09:44)

Are you talking about the N4, or the N12?

Kayla Andrade (09:47)

I think all of them — I haven’t served an N4 in a while, but the N12 clearly says the tenant doesn’t have to move out.

Rob Di Lisi (09:57)

That one for sure. The N4 actually tells them to either pay or get out — it doesn’t frame it as a right in the first paragraph.

Kayla Andrade (10:11)

No, it says: if you disagree with the notice, you do not have to move out; you should talk to your landlord, you may also get legal advice; if you can’t work things out, the landlord may apply to the board for an order to evict you, and the board will schedule a hearing where you can explain why you disagree.

Rob Di Lisi (10:30)

You don’t agree with that? I’ll play devil’s advocate — even as a landlord, I agree with it, because landlords do make mistakes; notices are sometimes faulty or incorrect, so tenants should have the right to be heard. I think the real problem is that it takes four months to get there.

Kayla Andrade (10:51)

If there’s a genuine discrepancy, the tenant should still have to bring some evidence for why they disagree with the amount. We’re okay with landlords working out payment arrangements, and we’re okay with payment plans at the board — but we need something in place for tenants who move in with first and last month’s rent, then ghost the landlord, take over the property, change the locks, and cause serious damage — those cases need to be expedited. That’s where we need more advocacy: clearer wording so tenants understand how serious it is, and I’ve suggested attaching local rent-relief service manager resources directly to the form, so tenants aren’t finding out about help the day before a hearing and causing adjournments.

Rob Di Lisi (11:50)

I agree with that, yes.

Kevin Breitner (11:52)

With everything both of you are arguing back and forth about, it always comes back to the bad landlord or the bad tenant — the negligent landlord, the non-paying tenant. Every good landlord and every good tenant isn’t affected by these changes, like you said at the top of the show — this is aimed at the people causing problems and affecting other people’s lives. You both mentioned ODSP and Ontario Works assistance programs — I personally think that’s one of the biggest problems that could be fixed with common sense: if you’re receiving housing assistance money, you shouldn’t have control over it. That money should go directly to the landlord or housing provider, not be controlled by the tenant receiving it. That change alone would help landlords and deter a lot of the issues we see. And then there’s the longevity — how long it takes to actually resolve non-payment, inconsistent rent, noise complaints, whatever the issue is. Whether that means hiring more people or prioritizing matters differently, the length of time it takes to deal with something is the biggest problem I see.

Kayla Andrade (13:33)

I’ve said it before — we’re paying an adjudicator a $110,000 salary to listen to storytime for three hours about why the tenant didn’t pay rent.

Rob Di Lisi (13:54)

Kayla, not to defend them, but imagine sitting there for three hours talking to landlords, tenants, and legal reps — I don’t think it’s an easy job.

Kayla Andrade (14:06)

No, I don’t doubt that, and I do appreciate that adjudicators have due diligence to do. But at the same time, we have a portal, evidence gets uploaded seven days in advance — the adjudicator should be able to get the gist of what’s happening from that evidence, give the landlord ten minutes to talk, the tenant ten minutes to talk, take ten minutes themselves to ask clarifying questions, and then make a decision — not run a three-hour mediation session. I’ve literally listened to an adjudicator let a tenant go on about a landlord not doing snow removal on the stairs — the adjudicator asked if she told the landlord, she said no, she told the city, and the city said the landlord had 24 hours. She was already calling the city, before the 24 hours were even up, trying to get her landlord in trouble, and the adjudicator didn’t shut that down. We need someone willing to move things along.

Rob Di Lisi (15:16)

They’re supposed to be a neutral link person — that’s why. I’m not defending them, by the way.

Kayla Andrade (15:28)

I know it’s a balance —

Rob Di Lisi (15:33)

There’s got to be balance.

Kayla Andrade (15:38)

I think three hours is very excessive, when we already have the tools to know whether a tenant is genuinely in hardship or not. Some tenants are taking advantage of the system and getting political, tying themselves to the NDP, and given there are more tenants than landlords, we’re being drowned out. My phone rang 44 times in half an hour from someone upset about a letter I wrote to the Toronto Star about Bill 60. I have a “silence unknown callers” feature on my phone, so I’m living rent free in their head. But that’s what we experience. And when I did a podcast earlier today, the host asked whether there should be more restrictions, and I said — do you want taxpayers to keep building, managing, maintaining and subsidizing government housing? Because that’s what happens if you put more restrictions on the private sector. Taxpayers are paying for the mismanagement of the Landlord and Tenant Board, and we have to hold our government accountable for fixing that. That’s what Ford, Rob Flack, Doug Downey, Graydon Smith and others are starting to do — they just came into their roles and are starting to understand what’s happening, but much more needs to happen. The way those tenants acted in the gallery — I don’t think they were just being tenants, I think they were being helped by other organizations to push a political agenda. That’s my honest opinion.

Rob Di Lisi (17:37)

I don’t disagree with that.

Kevin Breitner (17:41)

Tenants already have a lot of support — they get free legal advice when they have to go to a tribunal, whereas a landlord who could be out thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars, has to hire their own help without any assistance. Tenants have a lot of rights and protection, and like Rob said, I’m okay with most of it — I really am. It’s about fairness and dealing with things properly; there are just too many things that are unbalanced. The one thing that bothers me most is the assisted-living/housing-assistance money issue — if we’re providing that support to people who need shelter covered, they shouldn’t have any control over that money.

Kayla Andrade (18:39)

You’re onto it, Kevin. There are tenants in hardship who get access to funding — I’ve seen tenants get bailed out for $10,000 from rent banks or government programs after not paying rent, because deep down our elected officials know it’s cheaper to keep people housed than to pay roughly $3,000 a month to shelter one person in an emergency shelter. We’re putting a bandage on a bullet wound, and they know it — they can’t afford to keep playing with taxpayer money, they need the private sector. We’ve had 15 years of bills protecting tenants, right down to Bill 97 in 2023, which lets tenants file at the board up to two years later if they believe their landlord did a bad-faith eviction — I sent an article to our city councillors about a landlord in Hamilton who got charged $100,000 for a bad-faith eviction, so the consequences are already there, right down to landlords having to disclose on the form if they’ve filed multiple N12 applications before. Why aren’t we tracking that the same way for professional tenants who’ve been through the board repeatedly? Why do landlords have to do their own research to find out that a tenant who scammed them also scammed other landlords, through fraudulent credit checks and fraudulent employment information? It’s important that landlords do their own credit checks and that we, as a community, help flag tenants who’ve abused the system before — otherwise you’re wasting resources, wearing out private landlords, and straining non-profits that can’t build enough either.

Rob Di Lisi (21:26)

I still think you should run for MPP.

Kayla Andrade (21:29)

I’d get divorced — I’m better behind the scenes.

Kevin Breitner (21:32)

Just keep doing what you’re doing, being that advocate, getting to the politicians — I do see change coming, and I think in the next couple of years there’ll be some major changes to balance the scales here.

Kayla Andrade (21:48)

Michael Schreiner posted a TikTok saying he voted against Bill 60. My reaction was — you’re literally voting to let one private citizen subsidize another. You’re allowing rent theft to happen; you’d charge someone for stealing food, but not for stealing $17,000, $30,000, $50,000 in rent. It’s not about people who can’t pay, it’s about people who won’t. That’s what happens when I get four hours of sleep.

Kevin Breitner (22:43)

No — everything you’re saying always makes sense. That’s just how it is.

Kayla Andrade (22:49)

I’m not angry, I’m just firm, because I hear landlord stories all the time and I try to guide them. I had a call just before this podcast — I’m sending the caller to Rob and Bita, because he has an N4 for non-payment of $17,000, and an N5 because a tenant put four trailers on the property, and fraudulently signed the landlord’s wife’s name on paperwork so the trailer occupants could get access to Ontario Works — they’re going from the trailer to a hospital to use the bathroom. I told the landlord to hold off on bringing in property standards and talk to a paralegal first, so I can also take his story to the government. This is a landlord who gave someone a second chance — a couple where she moved out, he moved back in and was supposed to pay off arrears, then stopped paying entirely and effectively took over the property. When the landlord asked if he’d changed the locks, the tenant said no, and told the landlord he could leave his own doors open because he has four dogs that would go after anyone who came in. These are the kinds of intimidation tactics landlords are dealing with — not just the missed rent, but the threatening attitude that makes people question why they’re even in this business.

Rob Di Lisi (25:19)

You’re absolutely right, Kayla.

Kayla Andrade (25:22)

It’s sad — I have great tenants, shout out to my tenants — and I try to teach landlords how to talk to their own tenants, because one sentence said the wrong way can set someone off. Show some sympathy, and write to your tenant the way you’d want an adjudicator to see you: don’t sound negative or superior, because deep down we’re all in a similar boat — you pay me, and I pay the bank.

Kevin Breitner (26:03)

I talk to landlords all the time about exactly that — how you communicate with tenants. That’s part of why having a property manager, like myself or others, as a middleman, helps: it keeps the emotion out of it. A lot of times these situations are ultimately about money on both sides, and having someone in the middle to explain what needs to be done can save a lot of situations from going sideways. I truly believe that.

Kayla Andrade (26:39)

I expect more from our elected officials — I expect them to try to be that middleman too, instead of doing smoke and mirrors, chasing the popular topic of the moment because there are more tenant voters. It bothers me that an elected official can post something scaring tenants into thinking there’ll be mass homelessness and encampments, when that’s not what’s actually happening — and it bothers me that conservatives love how bluntly Ford speaks, but the headline became about him telling a protester to get a job, when the protesters were yelling constantly at that event.

Kevin Breitner (27:33)

I think if you’re out there yelling and complaining all day, that’s — I don’t know, maybe it’s a bit of a high for some people.

Kayla Andrade (27:48)

Apparently the protester came back and said Ford himself hasn’t had “a real job” — so I guess by that logic, the protester doesn’t have one either. But is that protester being paid to represent Acorn? How is he traveling to all these locations — that costs gas. My own sponsors help keep me traveling, and we’re seeing tenant unions with matching branded gear, so where’s their money coming from? We have so few landlords who are willing to speak up publicly, because they’re afraid — afraid of a hearing at the board, afraid tenants will find them online, afraid of what it could mean for their job if their employer finds out. Some work for the city and can’t come out publicly with their story, which is part of why I built my YouTube channel — to give landlords a place to share what they’re actually experiencing.

We’re not big landlords — about 70% of the rental housing stock is small mom-and-pop landlords. We don’t have a government pension, we can’t necessarily keep working until we’re 70, and a lot of our properties aren’t paid off. It’s the lack of education that gets me — we see TikTok videos with inaccurate information, and I have to fight the urge to make my own response video every time. It’s like Groundhog Day: different tenants, the exact same script.

Rob Di Lisi (30:00)

You’re absolutely right. I do see the TikToks — I have to be careful about how I comment on things, given my license, which is part of why I’m glad you’re a mouthpiece, Kayla.

Kayla Andrade (30:16)

My husband doesn’t love it very much!

Rob Di Lisi (30:16)

Well, as long as you don’t hold a license, you can say what you want.

Kayla Andrade (30:20)

That’s the benefit of not being an elected official or a paralegal — it has its perks, but it’s sad that people like you, Rob, have to stay quiet even though you’re the one in the trenches every day, dealing with landlords, tenants, and adjudicators. I sat next to one of the well-known adjudicators recently at the Hamilton Landlords Association — the association is going to Hamilton council to fight against landlord licensing, which is currently a pilot program in certain wards, seemingly targeting areas with more student housing. I’m hearing the pilot program costs the city about $2 million to run and has only brought in about $300,000 through licenses, so it’s already costing taxpayers roughly $1.7 million, and there’s talk of expanding it across all of Hamilton. You and I both know that in Waterloo, landlord licensing led to landlords applying for above-guideline rent increases to cover it. So when people assume landlords are being greedy, look at what municipalities are doing — what they do to the property owner has a consequence for the tenant too. Same with the renoviction bylaws some municipalities are pushing ahead of the 2026 municipal election — ACORN is meeting with elected officials and lawyers pushing the idea that landlords are abusing the system, when there are already real consequences in place, and tenants still have the right to move back in if a landlord doesn’t follow through. It’s a waste of taxpayer money to fund a report other municipalities like Kitchener and Guelph already concluded wasn’t worth doing, but some councils want to look proactive regardless. Sorry for taking over, guys.

Rob Di Lisi (33:14)

No, go ahead.

Kevin Breitner (33:16)

They’re using this to their advantage as politicians — that’s exactly what’s happening. But it comes down to misinformation and disinformation, from tenants, landlords, and even realtors who don’t fully understand this world. A lot of it comes down to information getting out to everybody — one of the reasons we started the landlord protection program with Stonegate Legal Services was to give landlords advice and information as things come up, so they understand their options are broader than they think — there’s usually a B and a C option, not just A. It’s about understanding what’s available to you. Rob and I both want to get that information out there so it’s a more balanced, educated field, so we can keep being housing providers — both as an investment for us, and to provide shelter for the people who need it.

Kayla Andrade (34:35)

That’s why I try to get one-on-one time with landlords, and why having this feed right now to get the message out matters — to help other landlords combat misinformation on social media, whether it’s coming from tenant unions trying to recruit more members, or from the NDP and Green Party (the Liberals have stayed pretty quiet on this, which surprises me — I’d have expected them to push for rent control between tenancies, which would be the end of purpose-built rental supply if it ever happened). We need our landlords to be louder. My message to Mr. Ford was: where are the landlords? We’re at work, we’re afraid of getting into any altercation because we don’t want criminal charges. So my message is: reach out to your MPP, get vocal on social media, write letters to the editor. I co-host a segment on a Cambridge local media platform, similar to Facebook, where you can post a news article, add your own commentary, and share that link to places that don’t allow the original source link — I’ve had a lot of success doing that and I’m trying to grow that presence, because I think we need multiple platforms. Even the landlord I referred to you earlier, Rob, isn’t on Facebook — how many landlords like that don’t even know Ontario Landlords Watch exists, or don’t know about rent reporting and how important it is to be upfront with tenants about that. We have to wait for Royal Assent right now, and it’s going to take some time — a lot of people are eager, and yes, this will help a little, but we need to keep building momentum, get more organized, and get back to in-person events, not just staying online.

Rob Di Lisi (37:02)

Well —

Kevin Breitner (37:03)

Yes — it’s about community, landlords helping each other.

Kayla Andrade (37:07)

You really agree with me, Rob?

Rob Di Lisi (37:10)

You’re like a wind-up doll — I want to carry you around, wind you up, and let you go, because you have so much to say and it’s such great information. You said something earlier about being “in the trenches” — we’re in the same war, just different trenches. You’re out there more than I am, since I’m in my office; the only landlords who call me are the ones already dealing with a problem tenant.

Kayla Andrade (37:47)

I’m trying to create more advocates. I recently had a landlord and property manager named Jonathan on my YouTube channel sharing his story, and he’s doing fantastic work on TikTok combating misinformation there too. There’s another gentleman who prefers to stay anonymous doing similar work, keeping me informed about what’s happening with landlord licensing and renoviction bylaws in different cities, helping me write letters to elected officials and schedule meetings — I’ll do Zoom calls all day for this. We have to, because as taxpayers we’re paying the price. When I talk to elected officials, they often have no idea about the RTA or these programs — you can’t expect them to know everything, so we have to lay it all out for them. People tell me to run for council, but I wouldn’t claim to know everything those roles require, and it’s not something I’m personally drawn to. But I’m good at what I do, and I want to help bring that education to them, so they can make better decisions instead of supporting a bylaw or policy that limits supply, limits landlords, and ultimately hurts our good tenants too — because our good tenants are the ones paying the price for these bad-actor tenants, who need to be called out.

Kevin Breitner (39:38)

Let’s fix the tenant issue — sounds simple, right? But going back to what we were discussing — information, and getting sponsors behind the mission for Ontario Landlords Watch to keep advocating. A lot of the landlords we represent are fairly new to this, and got into it because they saw how well real estate performed over the last decade and wanted in — they see it as the best investment out there. But a lot of them don’t fully understand the differences between municipalities, or much about the RTA or LTB, and rely on us and our team to keep their property running smoothly, because they want it to stay a passive investment. They don’t want to be in the trenches themselves, but it matters to them what’s going on, and they should stay at least aware and involved where they can.

You mentioned sponsors — we’ve had a good relationship for a few years, and I want to help raise money to keep you out there doing this work. I have an autographed Doug Gilmour jersey here — we’re going to raffle it off, and all the proceeds go toward helping you keep talking to people, so we can keep helping our clients and the broader community with the information you share. Thank you for everything you do, and I’ll do what I can to keep this moving forward — we’re all in the same war, in different trenches, on the same side, battling for fairness and for landlords getting a fair shake.

Kayla Andrade (41:41)

Honestly, Kevin, I’ve always admired your support, same with Rob — having this podcast, doing what you’re doing for the community, bringing the education out there. I know you’ve got some bigger things in the works you haven’t announced yet, but I want to thank you for the support. We were in Waterloo today for another podcast, and it feels like every interview, every appearance on CP24, every message coming in, we just need to keep the momentum going and get more organized. My StreamYard subscription is $630 a year, and I want to start a newsletter too — I have years of emails I’ve collected and want to build that into a direct call-to-action channel, so I’m not relying on the algorithm. Kevin, anything you do for us is appreciated, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart — before this podcast even happened, I genuinely wondered, is this what retiring feels like if this bill doesn’t pass? What do I do — bake more cookies? No — we’ve got work to do, we got a second chance, and I think the Conservatives got to see what we’ve been talking about when that behavior in the gallery circulated everywhere. They made it look peaceful; it wasn’t — it was disrespectful, and it shut down a democratic process, and any elected official proud to stand beside that kind of behavior should be ashamed.

Kevin Breitner (43:40)

I saw some pictures and short clips online — it looked nowhere close to a peaceful protest. I don’t want to dwell on that more, it’s just disappointing.

Kayla Andrade (43:55)

You’ve got to, honey — like you said, we’re at war, we’re in the trenches, we’ve got to get our armor on. These are the people making this a hard road for landlords to be heard. It sucks that we have to say it, but more and more landlords are coming on board with what’s happening, and we’re getting support from realtors, paralegals, and contractors, plus more elected officials who are starting to see both sides and want to make things fair and balanced, so our tax dollars are actually going to a good cause. If I ever go missing, check the water treatment facility — I’m still fighting that water bill here in Cambridge.

I don’t know where the tenants would put me, but just know I’m here for the good tenants too — I’ve had plenty of good tenants leave me reviews because I’ve helped them. I come from a family of tenants; my husband comes from a family of landlords. Whatever I recommend is aimed squarely at stopping the bad actors.

Rob Di Lisi (45:15)

And there’s plenty of them.

Kayla Andrade (45:18)

Rob, what do you think the stats will look like for 2024-2025 at the Landlord and Tenant Board?

Rob Di Lisi (45:28)

I have no idea — I want to wait until this actually becomes law, because I do think a change is coming. Ironically, we’re getting busier with tenant applications — there’s some backlash, and we’re seeing more T2s and T6s.

Kayla Andrade (45:48)

Can you describe what a T2 and T6 actually are?

Rob Di Lisi (45:50)

A T2 is for harassment and tenant rights, a T6 is for maintenance and repairs. I have to be careful how I say this, but I think certain groups are advocating for tenants to dig into landlords’ pockets by filing these applications, because filing forces the landlord to spend time and money defending it — and they can seek damages up to $50,000, though that doesn’t mean they’ll get it. It scares good landlords, because now they have to defend against it. Even before Bill 60, we were seeing tenants file more and more of these. Are some landlords bad? Yes, there are. But there are good landlords too, and a lot of these filings are just frivolous.

Kayla Andrade (46:49)

I had that exact conversation today about rent abatement claims — tenant-rights applications are actually the number one type of application at the board, not maintenance, because tenants know they can go to property standards for maintenance. A lot of it is just trying to get a rent abatement by framing something as harassment, when really the landlord just asked, “are you going to pay rent?”

Rob Di Lisi (47:19)

And remember, it only costs the tenant $50 to file.

Kayla Andrade (47:23)

Is it $50 or $55?

Rob Di Lisi (47:25)

Somewhere around there.

Kayla Andrade (47:27)

I think it went from $53 to $55. And what does a landlord get if the application is dismissed? Nothing — it’s a sunk cost. It sucks that we’re giving people this information, but honestly, we’ve kept quiet about these loopholes for too long, because we know some people go through the board specifically to exploit them. I spoke with a lawyer at the Landlord Association who said that when a tenant includes their rent arrears in a bankruptcy filing, adjudicators should be putting a stay on the eviction and giving the landlord time to go to bankruptcy court to get that stay lifted — instead, the board is just dismissing the landlord’s application outright. I learn something new every day. Bringing information like that to elected officials, showing them these loopholes, matters — and it’s unfortunate that there are even some legal reps out there essentially coaching tenants on how to use them.

Rob Di Lisi (48:33)

There are some legal reps who represent tenants that way.

Kayla Andrade (48:36)

Why would anyone encourage a client to declare bankruptcy over $50,000 in rent arrears? That looks worse for their credit long-term than the debt itself — but we won’t get into the credit side today. It’s unfortunate there’s so much more work to do, and I think we’ve only scratched the surface — but I like that this bill touched a little bit of everything I think we need to see addressed. We’ve had bill after bill focused on tenants; hopefully there’s another one coming for balance — Bill 61, 62, 63, who knows. We won’t give tenants a heart attack over it. Thank you, Kevin — I’m excited to keep sharing how people can reach out to you and buy tickets for the jersey, and I appreciate any help we can get to keep me traveling and moving. I’ve got a lot of calls to make and a lot of people to thank.

Rob Di Lisi (49:15)

(interjection)

Kayla Andrade (49:34)

If you want to check me out, it’s Kayla Unfiltered on Ontario Landlords Watch on YouTube — send a friend request. And if you’re calling me and there’s no name attached to the number, you’ll have to text me now, because I’ve had to start screening calls. Stop laughing, Kevin.

Kevin Breitner (49:54)

I’m not laughing at your expense right now, I promise.

Kayla Andrade (49:57)

She literally played Premier Ford’s own voicemail message back to me on my voicemail. And in the media, Rob Flack said he talked to landlords, and he talked to developers — and the reporters kept asking, did you talk to tenants? I’m pretty sure the tenants’ phones and emails have been off the hook too — they’ve established plenty of contact with tenants. This is where real journalism needs to step in and get the full story.

Kevin Breitner (50:44)

From last month, when we first talked about Bill 60 getting introduced, to now, the biggest thing that got removed was security of tenure at lease-end — being able to evict simply because the lease term expired. And like I said, I’m okay with that: if I’m evicting someone, I want there to be a real reason beyond “your lease just ended.” If someone’s a good tenant, I want them to stay.

Kayla Andrade (51:11)

That was the one thing I really wanted from the consultation — we’re not going to get rent control removed, and we’re not going to get lease-expiry evictions back. But I’d like to plant the idea of a late fee for late rent — it exists in other provinces, so why not here? I’d love people watching to look at what other provinces do, share what they like in the comments, and tell us where it’s from — Alberta, PEI, wherever — because I think we need to look at what’s working elsewhere and push to bring some of that here. I’m also calling my petition for Doug Downey a win, given how he spoke and debated on this bill — he made me proud.

Kevin Breitner (52:33)

You were calling for his head before!

Rob Di Lisi (52:36)

No, come on —

Kayla Andrade (52:38)

We’re not that type of people — we’re peaceful landlords, Kevin.

Kevin Breitner (52:44)

I am a gentle giant.

Kayla Andrade (52:47)

I’m not screaming, I’m not throwing anything from the gallery — those protesters were genuinely angry, and if you weren’t acting like that, they’d have known you were a landlord.

Kevin Breitner (53:02)

Best not to get involved with any of that.

Rob Di Lisi (53:04)

Kevin, we appreciate you having us on again. Thank you.

Kevin Breitner (53:08)

Always — I appreciate you both more than you probably realize. But seriously, at the end of the day, I really like what we’re doing for everybody out there, and it comes down to information and education getting out. It’s a work in progress, but I think we’re going in the right direction — especially since this is the first bill in 15 years that’s been pro-landlord instead of pro-tenant. Small changes, but good changes. Thanks to you both for joining us again and having a candid conversation so everybody understands what’s going on for landlords in this province, and look out for the raffle we’re running to raise funds for Kayla’s mission.

Kayla Andrade (54:04)

So much pressure!

Kevin Breitner (54:05)

We’re going to get tickets out there — it’s an autographed Doug Gilmour jersey, and you can see it over my shoulder. I’m a big Leafs fan, so it’s a great one to win, and it’s going toward a great cause, and makes a good Christmas present even if you’re not a Leafs fan.

Kayla Andrade (54:25)

How much are the tickets?

Kevin Breitner (54:28)

Same as I’ve done for my daughter’s softball fundraisers — $5 a ticket, five tickets for $20, fifteen tickets for $50. We’ll do the draw online, tracking everything the same way I run the 50/50 for the golf tournament, so we know exactly what tickets are bought and by whom, whether purchased online or in person. Let’s find a great winner for this jersey and raise some funds so we can help send Kayla to Ottawa, Toronto, and everywhere else she needs to go.

Rob Di Lisi (55:03)

Thank you for having us on.

Kayla Andrade (55:06)

It’s a pleasure. Keep fighting, everybody, and do everything right — don’t give elected officials or tenants anything to use against us. We have to be professional landlords.

Kevin Breitner (55:16)

And there it is. Until next time, bye for now.

Kayla Andrade (55:19)

Bye, guys.

Kevin Breitner (55:21)

Please remember, while we are professionals, this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The advice shared may not apply to your unique situation. Always seek personalized advice from a qualified professional before making any investment decisions. Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us this week. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you’re finding it informative and useful, make sure to like, subscribe, and share with a friend so that we can keep getting the information out there to Ontario landlords. Keep on joining us — we’ll see you next time.