How to End an Ontario Tenancy the Right Way: N9 vs. N11

Kevin Breitner (00:08)

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of CRESI’s Ontario Landlord series and back — our most popular, famous and loved guest, Mr. Robert Di Lisi from Stonegate Legal Services. How you doing today? Say hi, welcome.

Rob Di Lisi (00:23)

Kevin, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you and your audience. So I’m glad that you’re having me back.

Kevin Breitner (00:28)

We feel the same way about you. You’re a wealth of knowledge and experience, and we break it all down for these people nice and simple. Normally you and I are talking about bad news, or what happens when something goes sideways. Well, today let’s talk about how we want to do things right — let’s keep everything turning the right way, and let’s pretend we’re doing a changeover. Our tenant has given us the proper notice, and I want to talk about the forms you give and how you end a tenancy properly. I’ve been talking to people lately who thought the N11 and the N9 are interchangeable, so we’ll discuss that, and then what we should do to make sure the unit is ready for the new tenants — how do we prep it, and how do we keep ourselves out of hot water. So why don’t we start with how do we end a tenancy properly, Rob? I’ll let you talk about that one.

Rob Di Lisi (01:25)

So there are only really three ways to end a tenancy. Number one is when a tenant gives you notice, which is the N9 — a minimum 60 days’ notice. Number two would be a mutual agreement, which is the N11. And last but not least would be a court order, meaning you take them to the board, get an order, and the sheriff comes and removes the tenant. Now, what people don’t realize — and I hear this a lot — is that if you have an N9 and the tenant gives it to you, by itself it means nothing. You still need to apply to the board to get an eviction order in case the tenant does not move out. That also includes the N11. So when we do cash for keys, which is a big thing, I always tell clients that the N11 by itself does not mean anything — it just means the landlord and tenant have agreed to end the tenancy. But what if they don’t move out? We need to be able to enforce it, so we file it with the board and get something called an ex parte order, which allows us to evict if the tenant does not move out on the agreed-upon date.

Kevin Breitner (02:34)

So even with an N9 — where the tenant is telling you they’re vacating — you’re saying we still need to, or should, go to the board to let them know this person has given this to us in advance. This is funny, we’ve never actually done this with an N9, given the board notice, because they told us they’re leaving, right?

Rob Di Lisi (02:55)

Yeah — again, I’m doing things the legal way. Let’s say, for example, someone gives you an N9 and they’re supposed to move out by the end of November, and they don’t move out. Well, now what do you do? You’re relying on them to say they’re going to move out on their own. What you can do — and this also includes the N11 — is file it with the board, which gives you an order to evict if they don’t move out. Usually under the N9 they’re giving you notice because they have the intention, or they’ve found somewhere else to go. It’s usually on the N11 that you really want to file the ex parte order.

Kevin Breitner (03:30)

Yeah, no, this is great. You’re right — why wouldn’t you do this just in case? What if they changed their mind — it’s 70 days out and they say, forget it, we want a bigger place, or a place closer to Toronto, or whatever their reason is. They give me the N9 with good intentions that they plan on leaving, and then they don’t find a place that’s suitable, and now I’ve gone ahead and maybe tried to fill that vacancy thinking it’s going to come empty, and then they don’t go. Now we’re stuck. I’ve never done that with an N9, but that’s a great way to make sure that you can.

Rob Di Lisi (04:05)

Again, you don’t have to, Kevin — it does cost about $200 to do, so a lot of landlords don’t want to. Can I expand on something? I have landlords who call me and say, “I got an N9, I want to start showing it right away to prospective tenants — do I have the legal right to do that?” The answer is yes, you do have the legal right. But I’m going to tell you, as a landlord and as a legal rep, I would wait for that tenant to move out first. There are a few reasons. Number one, you’re going to be ticking off the tenant that’s in there right now by showing the place. Number two, it’s not going to smell as good as it’s supposed to, it’s not going to look as good as it’s supposed to, and the previous tenant will more than likely — not always — start bad-talking about the landlord: he doesn’t take care of this, he doesn’t take care of that. Moreover, we just talked about what if the tenant doesn’t move out — say you find a new tenant to move in December 1st, and the old tenant says they need a bit more time because their new place isn’t ready. The problem is you’ve now signed a new lease with someone else, which is a new contract, and you’re going to be in breach of it. So I always suggest that when you have a tenant who’s going to move out, make them move out first. Then you can go in, touch it up, paint it, make it look good and smell good so you can attract a better tenant.

Kevin Breitner (05:43)

Yeah, you’re bang on there — being able to make something look better always gets a better response. Sometimes you have a place that still looks really good, is still showable, and the tenant works with you, but you’re right, they don’t like it. Even with a good relationship, something might go wrong. So it might be better overall to avoid that crossover, take that month of vacancy to prep, clean, and have it all ready to go right at the beginning. If they give it to us with less than 60 days’ notice, does that make the N9 not valid — should we do an N11 at that point?

Rob Di Lisi (06:22)

No, it’s not that it’s invalid. Remember, there’s a power balance here — the landlord has power. If someone gives me notice, in my opinion, I want them out as quickly as possible. If it’s shorter than 60 days, am I going to sit there arguing with the tenant? No — the sooner you get them out, the sooner you can get into the property, clean it up, and make it smell and look good. Now, I know a lot of landlords say, “but they gave me less than 60 days’ notice” — do you want to fight with them, take them to small claims court? It’s going to cost you more time and money. So even though the landlord is technically in the right, you don’t have to do an N11 — the N9 is perfectly fine. In fact, I prefer the N9 over the N11, and the reason is that the tenant is giving me notice. Under the N11, it’s a mutual agreement, and they can later claim, “Rob forced me to sign the N11.” Under an N9, they’re giving it to me — so if we ever went to the board and they said they were forced to sign, well, how can you force someone to give notice? If it was an N11 and they told me I came to their place and forced them to sign, that’s a different story — but not under an N9.

Kevin Breitner (07:39)

No, makes sense. I just thought that with that short-form notice — it is a notice, we know it’s valid, they could still leave — why would I want to challenge it? That’s exactly what we’ve said to our team: when we get 45 days’ notice or whatever, guys, this is okay, we have enough time to do what we need to do. The tenant is saying they’re moving on, there’s no point challenging. Let’s just do what we need to do to set ourselves up for the next tenant. So, the tenant’s giving us their N9, they’re leaving at the end of the month — let’s say November 30th, since that’s where we are right now. We’re going to meet them to get the keys on November 30th at 10 in the morning, and we’re going to do a walkthrough to make sure everything’s okay going through the house. We’ve talked before about damages versus wear and tear — even dog scratching at baseboards is wear and tear, not damage. So we go through the walkthrough, see if we need to clean up or touch up the paint. We were talking the other day about changing locks, so I’ll let you get into that too. What are you going through right now with your own turnover?

Rob Di Lisi (09:07)

I’ll tell you what I do, because I am a landlord as well — I’m going through this right now with a tenant who moved out at the beginning of November. There are certain things I do. I don’t do a walkthrough, and the reason is, whether you do a walkthrough or not, what’s the remedy you’re actually searching for? Am I looking to go after the tenant — that’s a separate matter. So what I usually do, since I have a good relationship with my tenants, is ask them to leave it as clean as possible so it makes my life easier going in. Number one thing I focus on is paint — I have a five-gallon bucket and use one color, called White Whisper, from Sherwin-Williams. It’s a creamy, neutral white. When people leave scuffs, I go over it with one coat and it looks and smells better and is more attractive. Number two, I use plug-ins — the two scents I like are vanilla and apple spice. When someone walks into my unit, I want them to think, “this is in good condition, it smells good, it smells clean.” I personally have a cleaning lady come in and do a complete clean of the washrooms, kitchen, and flooring so it smells and looks better — first impressions are everything, just like on a date. If there are any maintenance issues, now is the time to take care of them — if a tenant mentioned a leaking faucet I never got to, once they’re gone I make sure I run the faucets and check that nothing’s dripping or broken, so the next tenant doesn’t come in complaining that things aren’t functioning. That also includes pest issues — if I hear about cockroaches or bugs, that tells me the property wasn’t cleaned properly, and now is the time to do a treatment, since it’s easier when the unit is vacant. Remember, anything you spend money on here is an expense — you’ve got to treat it like a business. Would you live there? Tenants are regular people just like you and me — you don’t know their financial situation. Some of them who sold a couple of years ago are actually sitting on money right now. So we need to change our attitude — finding the right tenant is what matters most.

Kevin Breitner (12:27)

I agree. Roughly 40% of our country pays rent, and that number is going to grow, for all different reasons. One of my best friends, a civil engineer who works for a land developer, has been a tenant and believes it’s the best option for him — some people on TV push renting over owning too. Obviously we’re sitting here saying real estate is the best investment, and there are reasons we think that, and reasons other people think differently — as I’ve said many times, we’re as individual as our fingerprints. We’re here to make sure the people who want to be housing providers, who want to be great landlords, use this as a great investment tool, and do it properly to protect themselves and maximize their returns. But yeah, it’s about turning it over — what do we want to live in. One thing I say to clients a lot is that location almost doesn’t matter, because somebody is going to want to rent there, whether it’s Oakville, Niagara Falls, Oshawa, or anywhere in between. People need space to live, and the little things are what turn somebody off from one place versus the next. I was talking to an Airbnb colleague the other day who said presentation is the biggest differentiator for getting people to choose on the short-term side — it’s just as valuable to us on the long-term side. Earlier I mentioned changing over locks and you kind of shook your head.

Rob Di Lisi (14:31)

I personally don’t change my locks — you can if you want to, and I know why people do it. I usually get the keys back, and that’s it, at least for my units. I’m not a huge landlord, I don’t have hundreds of units, but an alternative to changing the locks is re-keying the lock — cheaper, they just change the cylinder — but it’s still going to cost you some money. For me personally, I don’t do it, but I know some landlords do. As long as you understand it’s part of the business, that’s fine.

Kevin Breitner (15:07)

Yeah, we’ve done it when we needed to, on an eviction or something like that, but a lot of times when tenants are leaving on their own free will, we haven’t done it every single time. I do have one landlord who just changes the deadbolts out — he has them all marked and organized across about 11 properties, so he knows which keys go with which unit even though he’s not changing the full locks. No one would ever be able to figure out where their old key might still work if they kept one, which I think is always the big fear.

Rob Di Lisi (15:43)

Yeah, that makes sense. Another thing landlords should focus on is taking good pictures. If you’re using an iPhone, that’s fine — just make sure the lighting is good and the unit looks good. This is the gateway to your property; if the property doesn’t look good in the listing, people are going to pass over it. Do they have to be professional pictures? No — I use my iPhone, which has a wide angle, and I adjust the lighting, and it does just fine. I also do a video, so people get an idea of what the property looks and feels like before they go there. On the marketplaces I use, you can post video and pictures together. So make sure you take good pictures, good video, and qualify the heck out of your prospective tenants.

Kevin Breitner (17:03)

Yeah, definitely — screen and make sure you’re doing your due diligence to confirm somebody is actually qualified, because once they’re in, they’re in, and you want good quality tenants throughout.

Rob Di Lisi (17:27)

Another thing is security. At least in my properties, I’ve now added video cameras in common spaces, and made sure the lighting is good — I’ve switched all my exterior lighting to LED so there’s plenty of light, especially since it’s getting darker earlier, and I have women in some of my units. I want them to feel safe walking to their apartment. Lighting and cameras are deterrent factors — they don’t guarantee anything won’t happen, they just deter it.

Kevin Breitner (18:06)

The lighting and cameras are also a big thing when there are arguments — there’s your story, their story, and the actual truth. Cameras help with that, especially in small multifamily buildings. On the pictures — you’re right, for our listings we don’t hire a videographer either, but I take horizontal shots with my iPhone and send them to our photo team to brighten and touch up, so they look the best they can, since that first image is what attracts people scrolling online — same as with dating, it’s the visual that gets you to the next step.

Rob Di Lisi (19:08)

Just like you said, once you take the pictures and video, you only really need to do it once — I keep a Google Drive folder with the pictures, video, and a ready-made description, all templated, so if I have to turn a unit over I can have it posted within an hour or two, as soon as the unit’s clean. I believe in systemizing as much as possible.

Kevin Breitner (19:34)

Right — we’re doing a lot of things that are rinse and repeat, so why not have something ready to throw up again each time. So, once a unit is done — we’ve collected the keys, cleaned it up, touched it up, and made sure we got the proper form, the N9, if the tenant is letting us know they’re leaving, or the N11 for a mutual agreement, or otherwise a court order or other notice like an N12, N13, N5, or N4 for something else — once you have the proper form, go through the unit and make sure it’s presentable and clean: spray for bugs if there’s an issue, though most times there won’t be one, but make sure the place is thoroughly cleaned top to bottom — windows, flooring, appliances, everything — so it’s great for the new tenant. You don’t want someone to open the dishwasher, stove, or fridge and find it’s disgusting inside. I like that you mentioned one five-gallon bucket of paint — we use a light gray, a nice earth tone, same idea, so a large gallon and the same painter can go through everything, then do the touch-ups and maintenance to make everything shine at turnover time.

Rob Di Lisi (21:53)

You got it.

Kevin Breitner (21:55)

That pretty much sums up everything we want to be doing. Again, screen those tenants, make sure they’re great people for you, your property, and your neighbors as well. If you need any help or guidance, Rob Di Lisi from Stonegate Legal Services is always available — his contact information has flowed across the screen throughout this podcast, or you can reach out to us, the CRESI team at RE/MAX, at cresi.ca. Thanks for listening to another episode of CRESI’s Ontario Landlord series, as we’re here to educate and inform our Ontario landlord friends. Bye for now.

Narrator (22:46)

Please remember, while we are professionals, this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The advice shared may not apply to your unique situation. Always seek personalized advice from a qualified professional before making any investment decisions.

Kevin Breitner (23:01)

Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us this week. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you’re finding it informative and useful, make sure to like, subscribe, and share with a friend so that we can keep getting the information out there to Ontario landlords. Keep on joining us — we’ll see you next time.