[00:00:00] Kevin Breitner: Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode here for Ontario Landlords. Uh, today we’re going to again be discussing forms, a couple of forms in particular, but really it all comes back to what we say a lot here is that being a landlord is owning a business and you should treat it as such and understand.

I love that’s what it is. We’ve had a client [00:00:30] recently who has stated she wants her house back Um because of her financial situation. She’s trying to sell it and And is struggling with doing so because of the tenant being in place Landlords, once we start to rent out, even if it was previously your home or if you bought it as a rental property from beginning, it is an income producing property.

It is no longer your home. It is that tenant’s home. Yes, it is your property. Yes, you own it. [00:01:00] They are paying rent to stay there, but it is their home and there’s things that we have to do properly. Uh, we and. Rules that exist that, uh, may not seem fair, uh, at the time. Maybe they are going to change in the future.

Maybe they are not, but, uh, being a landlord is still a profitable investment. It’s one of the best in the world. Personally, I’m biased. Obviously I think it is the best. Uh, where else can you buy something for 20 percent down, have somebody else pay it [00:01:30] off and it appreciates, uh, The whole time you own it, um, more or less anyways.

So today the forms that we’re going to be discussing are the end for which is, uh, start the eviction process for non payment of rent, how it works and, uh, some of the common mistakes that are seen there when landlords choose to fill these out themselves. Um, We’re going to be talking today with Mr.

Robert Di Lisi. I’m sure you’ve heard that name on here before, uh, with Stonegate Legal Services. Uh, really, if you’re at this [00:02:00] point and you need some guidance, this is who you should be reaching out to and talking to so that they can help you through this process. Um, you’re already behind in a little bit of rent.

There’s no point in having it build up and build up in more cost. Um, I was speaking to a gentleman in my office today. That’s just give you another story here. But, uh, he was talking to me about a neighbor of his who chose not to use him as the realtor to lease out his property. Uh, that was a couple of years ago.

Um, [00:02:30] he, so he saved, I guess, a little bit of commission, uh, and rented it out. Now, when he’s talking to the gentleman in my office, he told him that the tenant hasn’t paid rent in several months. Uh, he filled out an N4 and sent it to the board, but it got rejected. And now he has to start all over again. So now it’s several more months.

And Now he doesn’t want to spend a couple thousand dollars on hiring a paralegal because he doesn’t want to invest more money Yet if he had done it properly from the [00:03:00] beginning Or a few times over where he had a chance to make a better choice He wouldn’t be behind as much as he is and he would have had the proper guidance and uh, Wherewithal to do everything.

So anyways, uh without further ado, let’s bring in. Mr. Robert Di Lisi so that we can talk about Uh the n4. How are you today? My man?

[00:03:19] Rob Di Lisi: Hey Kevin, how you doing? Thanks for having me on again. And I’m excited to talk about these forums.

[00:03:24] Kevin Breitner: Yeah. Uh, lots of fun, right? Everybody wants to, to talk about this, but at least these are the two most common, [00:03:30] uh, right that people I think use most of the times and, uh, the two that are maybe sometimes most misunderstood about how they work and how they need to be filled out.

[00:03:40] Rob Di Lisi: I’ll answer some of the things that I hear a lot. So from a question that I get asked a lot is, what’s When do I serve the N4? The N4 is served the day after rent is due. And something I tell landlords is that, remember, you said it earlier, this is a business. So if they say, Oh, I’m going to pay, I’m going to pay.

You [00:04:00] should still be sending out the N4 because there’s a notice period. So if you hand deliver it, You’re looking at a 14 day notice from when you serve it. So if you don’t serve it on the second day and you wait a week, you’re adding more time to the notice period. Now, if you decide to mail the notice, you have to add five days onto the notice period.

So again, If they owe money and you’re delaying sending [00:04:30] out the notice, you’re not doing anyone any favors. Remember as a business, you send out these forms immediately. The thing that I always want to mention is that the N4 is the most common. Of all the forms, because it’s for non payment of rent.

However, it’s where all, a lot of mistakes are made. So some of the mistakes that are made is for example, mentioning all the tenants. You have to mention all the tenants on the notice, the address of the [00:05:00] property. You have to identify the address properly. So an example would be is let’s say it’s 55 front street, which is a condominium.

Well, what unit is it? You need to make sure that you identify the unit. Another thing would be is the amount owing. You need to make sure that you know the amount owing. And last but not least would be the termination date of the notice. Remember, depending on how you’re serving it, you need to keep in mind of how [00:05:30] you’re serving it.

And the way that you would best know that is by looking at the Certificate of Service. Now, a lot of people ask me is email an acceptable form of service. It depends on the Ontario standard lease. It’s built in there. However, what we’ve seen a few times is adjudicators don’t like that it’s part of the lease.

They want it to be separate because the argument is, is that they’re signing it with the lease. So even if you have it on there, that [00:06:00] it’s email, I would still mail it. Just to make sure that there’s no problems because again, to get to the board, Kevin, you’ve heard this before, you’re looking at four to six months.

Uh, the next problem that I see a lot on the N4 is the calculation in the rental period. So you need to understand when the rent starts, when the rental term ends. So a perfect example of this is that let’s say it starts on the 15th. That means the 14th would be [00:06:30] the termination. I see a lot of people putting 15 to the 15th.

Well, if you’re doing that, you’re risking the adjudicator throwing it out. Uh, last but not least is on the bottom of the N4. It says who is serving or who’s giving this notice. Is it a landlord or representative? If you put representative, this doesn’t mean for real estate agents. So I see a lot of real estate agents filling this out as representatives.

[00:07:00] If you do that, you’re now risking it being dismissed. And just to confirm on the, um, and for, if you look at the bottom, it says LSUC, that is law society of upper Canada. So it’s important that you understand who the representative is. So that would be for the N4. That is the most. Common mistakes that I’ve seen.

Is there any questions that you have on that?

[00:07:25] Kevin Breitner: I was going to say, if a landlord fills this out, can anybody deliver it? [00:07:30]

[00:07:31] Rob Di Lisi: Technically? Yes, but I would still say that the landlord does it. So let’s say for example, he’s not in the country. And he has someone that’s going to do it. Just make sure that you make it outlined who that person is handing that notice to the tenant

[00:07:48] Kevin Breitner: on that certificate, for example,

[00:07:49] Rob Di Lisi: your property management company.

So you are allowed to serve notices. You’re just not allowed to represent at the board.

[00:07:56] Kevin Breitner: Correct. What we do is we have all of our landlords, uh, [00:08:00] fill this out, sign it with, uh, Our assistance and then whether we’re the ones that hand deliver it or email it out depending on that We have an email to consent form that they do on top of their lease Like you had mentioned as well because just to make sure that that’s there So we get that form signed by everybody just in case and then we can do it that way as well But yeah, we are not the representative.

Uh, it is the landlord in our case signing it. We are just ones

[00:08:24] Rob Di Lisi: that’s correct That’s correct.

[00:08:26] Kevin Breitner: Exactly helping get it out there to them. So Uh, you mentioned the [00:08:30] dates right the 21st the The end of the month, even, you know, a lot of times people double check the dates, whether it’s 30th. I know that, uh, it’s normally, but simplest mistakes like that are made.

Uh, they will turn it around and make you start from scratch all over again. And you’re already months behind when you’re dealing with something like rent. So, um,

[00:08:50] Rob Di Lisi: right. So can I mention something else about the end for, if you don’t mind? So a lot of people think that when they fill out the N 4, that that’s all that they have to do.

You still [00:09:00] need to, after the notice period, take it to the board. And just because it goes to the board, it doesn’t mean that you’re guaranteed to be heard. It means you have a guaranteed hearing date. But you’re not guaranteed to be heard because if they’re, if they don’t have enough time, they will adjourn the matter or postpone the matter another three, four or five months, depending on their schedule.

[00:09:23] Kevin Breitner: It’s got to change. That’s why

[00:09:25] Rob Di Lisi: these have to be done accurately. You don’t want to look, you just mentioned you had a [00:09:30] client or a friend, someone that, that tried to do the forms themselves, you’re just wasting time. And the, the trying to recover this money, that’s a whole other step. Another headache of.

Trying to get that money back.

[00:09:44] Kevin Breitner: And, uh, again, as, as the business, it’s not good when our single family home, that one tenant is not paying their rent. It’s, you know, a lot different when you get into multifamily, at least you’re not, uh, having one person not pay, you know, you might have a couple of other, a few other units, whatever the case [00:10:00] may be that are at least helping facilitate that cost.

So it’s not. A hundred percent having to come out of your pocket because mortgage company doesn’t care if you’re not getting your rent or not. Uh, they want to make sure that you are still paying your bill. So

[00:10:14] Rob Di Lisi: lastly, uh, this is a joke that I make to people is, you know, people forget that when they own property, it’s a business, so you have to pretend sometimes you work for Donald Trump.

If you worked for Donald Trump and you didn’t do the forms when you were supposed to, what would happen to you? You would get fired. [00:10:30] So treat it like a business. Make sure. That you’re on time with the notices. A lot of times people will say, well, if I send them a notice, they’re going to stop paying rent.

They’re going to get upset. You have to start something. You can’t keep letting this go.

[00:10:45] Kevin Breitner: Yeah, we, uh, we had, we had, we have a tenant who was waiting on, uh, uh, parents death, uh, inheritance, I guess, and, uh, landlord allowed several months to go by waiting on [00:11:00] this. And, uh, like you said, time was wasted, but they were, you know, thinking that this was going to come, the tenant had been good so far, and now they were like, okay, we’re several months behind, we can’t wait anymore, we have to at least do something so that the tenant knows that this is what’s going on, and that it has to happen, but they were delayed and being as nice as they could, right, we’re housing providers, at the end of the day, we want to make sure that everybody has a great place to live, a home, a roof over their head, a nice clean place, right, but, uh, [00:11:30] We, things can only be done so far with whatever story you want to.

Anyways, you have to be diligent, but you also have to have a heart. I think in situations due to what’s going on. So the end for, for the non payment of rent again, yeah. After the notice period, you still have more to do with starting the all one process and getting to the date and everything like that.

So, well, that’s, that’s that end for remember, make sure that it’s filled out properly. Really? You should be bringing in the professionals. Uh, at Stonegate Legal Services to make sure [00:12:00] that they’re handling this situation again, um, the one number that too many people concentrate on, uh, isn’t the correct number and that’s either what they’re going to spend or what they’re saving when really whatever we’re doing, it’s a number to concentrate on is what you’re going to net, you know, and we talk about, you know, The cash for key situation, which everybody hates or this situation here getting in a professional It is way better to spend a little bit of money so that it doesn’t cost you more And you end up [00:12:30] netting more by doing it this way than to go at it Uh at on your own and possibly make mistakes or anything So the other form that we said we’re going to talk about today because there are several landlord based forms and other tenant based forms But the one that we’re going to get into is the n12 Uh, which is when you’re Moving yourself in or a blood relative or you have sold the property and the new buyer is on Intending on taking over the property as their primary residence.

Um, so that would be the end 12th [00:13:00] Um, i’ll start it off with one little story just so that everybody is aware Um Does it make sense right as we said once you’ve rented out your home It is no longer your home. Even if it was your primary residence. This is the form the n12 that you have to um proceed with to let the buyer let the Tenant know that you’ll be moving back in and here’s the process for it.

You can’t just send them a text Okay, you can’t just say over the phone. Hey, we’re going to be selling [00:13:30] our home in 90 days So we’d like you to To move out so that we can sell it. Uh, you need to have a buyer already with this form, or again, you need to be moving back in, uh, yourself or a blood relative.

Um, Rob, uh, what do you have to say about the N12?

[00:13:46] Rob Di Lisi: So, uh, you did say something, but I’m going to correct you in a second. So it’s not necessarily blood relative. So there’s more to that. So the N12 is going to be another common form. Um, it is going to be for landlords, personal [00:14:00] use, a purchaser, a family member.

Or even a caregiver. Again, these are legal notices. So again, the tenants information has to be correct. The address has to be correct. The termination date is minimum 60 days notice. And when I say minimum 60 days, it’s from the end of the rental period. So today being January 24th. That means if I was serving an N12 today, [00:14:30] that means February end of March would be 60 days.

Now, it also depends on how you’re serving it because January 24th, if we send it by mail, if we add on five days from today, that would be the 29th. So you’re still in that period. But if we waited until the 28th of January and you mailed it, that means that they wouldn’t be getting it until February.

Which means now it changes your termination date. So this is a very, very common mistake [00:15:00] that I see landlords make is when they send out the notice, you have to be very careful with that 60 days notice because it’s minimum. 60 days notice. That’s number one. Number two, you said something in regards to blood relative.

It’s not necessarily blood relative. If you look at the N12 form, it says me, my parent, my spouse, my spouse’s child, my child, or spouse’s parent. [00:15:30] It doesn’t say uncle. It doesn’t say cousin. It doesn’t say brother. It doesn’t say sister. Even though that that is blood relative. So if people are ever asking, well, who can move in, if it’s going to be for personal use, these are the only people that can move in.

So you can’t say I’m going to get my cousin to move in. It has to be arms length. Okay. Uh, another mistake that I, I, I see a lot on the end 12 [00:16:00] is it is a minimum 60 days notice, and it comes with a one month rent compensation. That is mandatory. In fact, on the second page on the first paragraph, it even tells you that it’s a 60 days notice and you must give the one month’s rent.

That one month’s rent is not conditional upon them moving out. That must be given regardless if they move out or [00:16:30] not. Because if you go to the board, The first question they’re going to ask is, was the compensation given to the tenant? And if you say no, your file’s done. If you say yes, and it was given five days after the termination date, it’s still not valid under legislation.

It must be paid on or before the termination date. So, I don’t suggest anyone waits till the last day. You should try to give [00:17:00] that compensation immediately. The last thing that people need to know is on the N 12, on the second page, fourth paragraph, it tells the tenant, you do not have to move out if you do not agree with this notice.

That means that they have the right to an adjudication. That means the landlord now has to proceed with taking the matter to the landlord and tenant board to be heard and get an eviction. To get a hearing right [00:17:30] now on an N 12, you are looking, I’m going to be conservative here, six to eight months. And then you’re looking at minimum 30 to 60 days to get the order.

And then the person that’s supposed to move in must move in for one year. So if you look at it, you’re almost looking at two years before you can re rent a home. Or sell the property. Now, if it’s going to be a buyer moving in, this creates another problem [00:18:00] because in your agreement of purchase and sale, if you guarantee vacant possession and the tenant doesn’t move out and you wait for a hearing, you’re going to be in breach of contract, which is going to cost the seller thousands of dollars and hoping that the tenant’s going to move out.

And then sometimes, and this is a term that you’ve mentioned, You’ll be forced to do a cash for keys, but now they’re going to be in a position where they can extort you. Because they know that you have a closing. So they’re going to ask for an exuberant amount because they know that you’re in a [00:18:30] situation where you have to pay them.

The last thing I’ll mention is again, is that these notices have to be served by either the landlord or a legal representative. Okay. So again, not real estate agents. All right. They cannot do this kind of stuff and they’re not licensed to do so. These are the most common things that we see with the N12.

Is there anything that I can answer that you may have?

[00:18:56] Kevin Breitner: No, uh, I, I’m just going to also say one of the things that [00:19:00] I hear when people say it is. 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, they convert that into one, two, three months. And it’s not actually, because again, when you think about how many months are in February, normally 28, that is not 30 days.

So whenever that’s involved, you have to make sure that if it’s, you know, having that 31 days on either side, January, March, or like, you know what I mean? Anyways, it comes into play, um, with, and that’s why it’s minimum

[00:19:25] Rob Di Lisi: minimum 60 days notice. [00:19:30] Right. And February, I’m glad that you said that February is a funny month.

So you got to be careful with the days there. Okay. Uh, last thing, if you don’t mind, I sometimes hear landlords using the end 12 as a way to illegally evict tenants and you have to be extremely careful. Remember, these are legal forms. So once you commit to an end 12, which is a legal form, you’re now, you’ve now served it.

You are [00:20:00] now going to have to fulfill the requirements of the N 12 and if you change your mind that N 12 doesn’t disappear All right. So if the tenant moves out, they’re still relying on this and 12, which could create problems because then the landlord tries to re rent it or sell it and it becomes a bad faith.

[00:20:18] Kevin Breitner: Yes. Sadly, there are some landlords out there that do things, um, in, like you said, bad faith, uh, trying to cut a corner, um, maybe because they don’t know. I don’t know what the [00:20:30] right way to do it is, but anyways, that’s one of the reasons why we’re doing this here is to make sure that people have the right information so that they can make the right decisions and do everything properly.

You know, one thing that. One thing that we had a client talk to us about one time and Rob, you may remember this was a few years ago was about a corporation owning the property, but the landlord saying that he was mother was going to be moving in to be closer to, uh, everything was legitimate on that end.

Problem was, is that the [00:21:00] corporation doesn’t have a mother. Uh, once he had turned, sorry. It’s

[00:21:07] Rob Di Lisi: an entity, right?

[00:21:08] Kevin Breitner: Exactly. Um, so it, it cannot have a sibling, a spouse, or not a sibling, sorry, a child, a spouse, uh, or a parent. So, um, if you,

[00:21:18] Rob Di Lisi: I’m glad that you brought that up, Kevin. I forgot to mention that, but yeah, you’re right.

A corporation cannot serve an N12 unless it’s for a buyer. That is not a corporation.

[00:21:27] Kevin Breitner: Correct, because then they would be moving in and that would be [00:21:30] the new, uh, That’s correct. Primary residence of that purchaser. Hope that was enough information for everybody out there. I think, uh, again, these are obviously the most two common forms, as we said, that are getting served.

Uh, if you have any questions about anything, please, uh, reach out to, uh, myself. Or Rob at Stonegate Legal Services to make sure that you’re getting the proper advice and proper guidance so that you’re making the right decision that is best for you. Uh, and if you can’t find these forms, they’re easily found on the [00:22:00] LTB.

Uh, website, but if you go to cresi. ca in our resource section, you can link through from everything from there as well. Uh, cause again, cresi is about being your complete solution and, uh, whether that’s the point you’re in the right direction or to give you help ourselves. Uh, we’re definitely here to make sure that you are getting the right information and guidance that you need for your specific situation.

Thanks so much for listening, Rob, as always, thanks so much for being our brains. Thank you for having me here. And, uh, we will definitely talk to everybody soon. [00:22:30] Bye for now.

[00:22:31] Narrator: Please remember while we are professionals, this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The advice shared may not apply to your unique situation.

Always seek personalized advice from a qualified professional before making any investment decisions.

[00:22:47] Kevin Breitner: Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us this week. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you’re finding it informative and useful, make sure to like, subscribe, uh, share with a friend so that we can keep getting the information out there to Ontario [00:23:00] landlords and, uh, keep on joining us.

We’ll see you next time.